Curse

iToasterHD · Jul 21, 2009, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Is Incendiary Arrows and Apply Poison effective in PvE?
13 Marks, 12 Wilderness and 9 expertise

I would think Incendiary Arrows and Ignite Arrows is similar to Barrage, great if enemies are clumped. But in most cases they are not, so Ignite Arrows quickly loses its effectiveness.

When I say effective, I mean efficient not "anything works in PvE" This also includes or rather does NOT include PvE skills. If you have to bring them up, then the build isn't effective.

Fabez · Jul 21, 2009, 11:02 AM // 11:02

From the Wiki:

Quote:

Incendiary Arrrows - 5 energy / 5 second recharge - Shoot arrows at target foe and up to 2 foes near your target. Those foes are set on fire for 1...3...3 seconds.

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Barrage - 5 energy / 1 second recharge - All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at target foe and up to 6 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +5...17...20 damage if they hit.

It's a good skill in it's own right, and being able to apply the Burning and Poison conditions to foes is nice, but the fact that it hits 3 foes (at most, though hitting foes in a wider area then Barrage) combined with the higher recharge limits it's usefulness for PvE purposes.

As for Ignite Arrows, I don't find the added damage all that hot (pun intended), the damage it deals can get reduced by a great amount depending on the target foes armor against fire (or armor in general if you consider Hard Mode).

The + that Barrage gets is that it has a lot of synergy with skills that trigger on hit, such as the Necromancer Order skills, Splinter Weapon, etc. That's not to say Incendiary Arrows can't make use of them, but since Barrage has the potential to hit more foes, it's also possible these effects trigger more often.

(take note: anything mentioned in this post is my opinion, others may give you different advice and I leave it up to you to pick what you feel is best)

Archress Shayleigh · Jul 21, 2009, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Yes. It's effective. Not as effective as other builds, but yeah.

MagmaRed · Jul 21, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Incendiary and Apply neither one add damage. You'd be better served in PvE by supplying damage with a prep like Kindle, Ignite, Read, etc. Conditions in PvE aren't as curcial as they are in PvP unless talking about things like Blind and Weakness for physical damage classes or Daze for casters. Degen conditions aren't much use, although Burning has potential if teamed up with an Ele using Searing Flames and/or a Paragon using "They're On Fire!".

TheodenKing · Jul 21, 2009, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

...great if enemies are clumped. But in most cases they are not...

So I assume you are using heroes and not a tank?

You bring up a few possible topics here:

1) Barrage vs Incendiary + Apply poison. If your role is condition pressure/spreading, then Incendiary can be quite good. Add Fragility or Epidemic to your build, etc. If your objective is aoe damage, stick with barrage.

2) Ignite Arrows. Despite what your logic might tell you, this skill is pretty ineffective in HM. It is a decent skill early in Prophecies before you have access to better attack combos.

3) Clumping. If your enemies aren't grouped together, you aren't using good tactics for the build you are running. Part of being a good ranger is manipulating the fight to give yourself an advantage. This includes using the terrain to create a hieght advantage to increase arrow range and damage. It also includes making it harder for foes to get to your backline. And it includes getting the enemies to come together in a nice barrageable pile.

iToasterHD · Jul 21, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

I still don't get rangers. What exactly do they do? Barrage is for damage assistance, Broad Head Arrow is to take down casters, Prepared Shot is for high energy spike builds. Oh, and touch rangers. Am I really missing anything else? It just seems like they have fewer builds/roles then other classes. Except maybe paragon.

I played ranger for a very long time, and I just never felt like I was really contributing to the team, except when I used Broad Head Arrow. I still don't understand their place in PvE.

Divine Ashes · Jul 21, 2009, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

I still don't get rangers. What exactly do they do? Barrage is for damage assistance, Broad Head Arrow is to take down casters, Prepared Shot is for high energy spike builds. Oh, and touch rangers. Am I really missing anything else? It just seems like they have fewer builds/roles then other classes. Except maybe paragon.

I played ranger for a very long time, and I just never felt like I was really contributing to the team, except when I used Broad Head Arrow. I still don't understand their place in PvE.

It's true that Rangers are much more effective in PvP than PvE, but don't doubt the damage you can do on a ranger w/ splinter barrage + "I Am The Strongest!". Also, as you stated, Broad Head Arrow is extremely useful in some areas, in some instances being the difference between being rolled repeatedly and breezing through some areas.

Ranger roles are much more specific in most cases. Some areas are made easier through nature rituals such as winter in the titan areas of prophecies, etc, trapping is effective in some areas (although not often), as stated earlier daze is almost essential in some vanqs, and although not as effective as in pvp, dshot is still one of the best skills in the game and is useful in many cases in pve.

Axwind · Jul 21, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

IA and AP are okay, but there are better ways to do damage as a ranger. My main's a ranger, and rather than try to match the AoE havoc an ele can cause (which a ranger can't), he specializes in doing lots of damage to a single target in a short amount of time. I don't know what campaigns you have, but this build uses skills from all of them. Still tweaking it as he gets further along in the game, but it works well and he rarely runs low on energy.

Expert Focus
Burning Arrow/Punishing Shot
Penetrating Attack
Sundering Attack
Needling Shot
Troll Unguent
Antidote Signet
Resurrection Chant

Expertise 15
Marksmanship 15

With the extremely high Expertise combined with Expert Focus, the 10 energy skills cost only 3 energy, and Needling Shot is basically free. After the first 3 attack skills, most normal enemies will be near 50% health or under it, which is what triggers Needling Shot's instant recharge. At 15 Marksmanship, NS does 30 damage per shot, armor ignoring - and with the instant recharge when the enemy's health is down, it becomes easy to finish off the enemy from there (30 damage every half second or so quickly adds up).

The other attack skills are high damage and quick release, with only a moderate 4 second recharge that allows them to be used as a chain. You'll need a Marksmanship headgear+Major rune as well as a Superior Expertise rune and some vigor & vitae runes (survivor insignias work well, too) to get your attributes and health up.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, Wilderness Survival is set to 10 to increase Troll Unguent's effectiveness. Or you could use a Rit secondary and Splinter Weapon instead, with 10 in Channeling Magic for some decent AoE damage. You'd have to use a different rez in that case, either one of the rit ones or a signet. And TU is still a decent self-heal even without putting any points into WS.

Also, the extra +10 damage from Expert Focus stacks with the damage from Needling Shot, which means 40 armor ignoring damage per shot instead of 30 (at 15 Expertise). At about 2 shots per second, that's around 80 dps once the enemy's health hits the halfway mark. And using the elite and armor penetrating skills prior to that, you get a similarly high dps.

Naturally, having such high scores in three different attributes requires you to have done the attribute point quests for your character's campaign. Just thought I'd mention that. I haven't tested this build much in HM, only NM, but I plan to eventually. My ranger is still working his way through all the campaigns first. Two down (Proph and Factions) and two to go (NF and EOTN).

Tenebrae · Jul 21, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

On spreading conditions ? yeah , that combo is effective and leaves room for other skills. I dont know why you "dont get Rangers" , they can do a lot of things .... its just that they are not OP in all of them.
Degen is armor ignoring so yeah , coupled with "Taof" Paras you are adding 21x3 ( target foe and 2 NEAR that foe , almost always 3 arrows ) and helping your team to have a 30%~ dmg reduction from these foes.
Most of the times Rangers are midliners , almost never targeted , can do fast res , add support skills for damage or damage prevent . They can do somethin with 5 skills and leave 2-3 for support unlike half profs. If you dont understand support role you wont "get" Rangers , pretty usual . If you want big numbers ( Damage Dealers ) go on pure damage builds with Prep Shot or Glass Arrows adding support damage like EBsoH and/or Brutal weap etc .
For me it was the best prof ( i dont like casters ) and now that ive tested all profs for a while , i still like ranger the most , glad its my main.

iToasterHD · Jul 21, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

My Main is a Ritualist. I completely understand support role and the importance of assisting your team, rather then seeing big numbers. As a rit, I can do anything and everything that is needed of me. I can heal, protect, damage, assist in damage, MM bomb, MM & Heal, Spirit Spammer, Super Splinter/Barrage and Farm. Any team I join, I can support.

I assure you, it is not from a lack of understanding of Support Roles. I just don't get what rangers do, aside from BHA. Once again, I would like to say again with emphasis I LOVE RANGERS, they are by are the best at surviving and broad head arrow is indispensable. But god, after 2 years of playing Ranger I still just don't get them. They seem like the maverick in a team, that helps but isn't really a team player.

And it very well could be just because I am a perma-noob. And if that is the case, good! I hope one day someone can enlighten me so I can enjoy ranger as much as other people do.

Axwind · Jul 22, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Basically, Toaster, rangers are flexible. They can be interrupters, condition spreaders, trappers, or damage dealers. Or beastmasters, but that path isn't as effective as others. Choose the role to you want to play in the party and craft your build accordingly. My ranger's a damage dealer, for instance, but there are plenty of other skills to have your ranger fill another role if that's what you like.

YunSooJin · Jul 22, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Rangers are primarily best at interrupting, condition spreading and trapping. They are not as strong compared to other classes for damage, but in the realm of pve where the bar is so low, it doesn't really matter. Conditions is not that useful for general pve, since monster fights require so little time, thus not utilizing condition damage to its full potential. Interrupting has limited use, and is usually ignored because you can simply use minions to explode to do damage and absorb any spells you may want interrupted. Trapping simply takes too much time to be really useful, although if you have a primary I suppose you can bring one trap for your backline. Again, should not be necessary because of your minion master.